Simon Brown.

Proverbs 8:34-36 Blessed is the man who hears me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at my door posts. For whoever finds me finds life, and will obtain favor from Yahweh. But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul. All those who hate me love death.” Psalm 84: 11 For Yahweh God is a sun and a shield. Yahweh will give grace and glory. He withholds no good thing from those who walk blamelessly. 12 Yahweh of Armies, blessed is the man who trusts in you. 1 John 5:5 Now who is the one overcoming the world, except the one believing that Jesus is the Son of God?

Wednesday 2 November 2016

Why do Trinitarians use ISAIAH 9:6, to PROVE the Trinity, when ISAIAH 9:6, DISPROVES the Trinity?

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6,

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Isaiah 9:6.
English Standard Version

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Lets do what MOST Trinitarians do NOT do.
Lets delve deep and be a barean Jew and understand the true meaning of ISAIAH 9:6.

Here is another popular scripture which Trinitarians believe proves the Trinity. 

Trinitarians say their faith is a mystery, yet it is more of a mystery to others trying to understand why they believe Isaiah 9:6, proves the Trinity.

This is because the doctrine of the Trinity faith do not believe Jesus is the Everlasting Father, as we read Isaiah 9:6, goes on to say Jesus is the Father, and yet many still point to this scripture to prove the Trinity, instead of understanding Isaiah 9:6 contradicts and disproves the Trinity.

For those who understand the truth, we need to join together and SHOUT from the rooftops to help the Trinitarians see and understand their COUNTLESS contradictions, so we can help the truth seekers take the correct side of Trinitarians teachings more seriously, helping all to understand GOD and His SON do not contradict their own teachings, which in return helps people who do understand the truth from being embarrassed.

We should never be freighted to witness and testify the truth to the countless faiths who cannot see what we can see, and who cannot understand what we can understand, as this is something called love. Doing nothing and sitting on out bottoms eating popcorn while watching movies is not showing love for the billions who are not aware of the truth.

We may not always help people see or understand the truth, often because of human pride, but at least when the end comes, people cannot say they were not told.

For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began. 2 Timothy 1:7 – 9.

So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32.

In fact in Philip Moore’s book, Messiah Conspiracy for the Isaac Newton content below.
Philip N. Moore.

History’s greatest scientists, and Bible scholar: Sir Isaac Newton said: not to desert the treasure of literal scriptures, even if they call you “hot-headed”
Sir Isaac Newton and GOD.

Today, many in the organised religious world attempt to dissuade us from reading and interpreting the Bible literally for ourselves! We should note that Isaac Newton encourages us, that is you and me, not to accept the opinion of others concerning the Bible, but to adventurously search these treasures (literal interpretation of the Scriptures) out for ourselves. In Newton’s own words: “Let me therefore beg of you NOT to trust the opinion of any man concerning these things…search the Scriptures yourself…if you desire to find the truth. Which, if you shall at length attain, you will value above all other treasures…search into these Scriptures which God has given to be a guide…and be not discouraged
by the gainsaying which these things will meet with the world! They will call you a hot-headed fellow, a bigot, a fanatic, a heretic, etc: and tell you of the uncertainty of these interpretations, and vanity of attending to them: Not considering that the prophecies concerning our Savior’s first Coming were of more difficult interpretation, and yet God rejected the Jews for not attending better to them. And whether they will believe it or not, there are greater judgments that hang over the Christians for their remissness than
ever the Jews yet felt. But the world loves to be deceived, they will not understand, they never consider equally, but are wholly led by prejudice, interest, the praise of men, and authority of the church they live in: as is plain because all parties keep close to the religion they have been brought up in, and yet in all parties there are wise and learned as well as fools and ignorant. There are but few that seek to understand the religion they profess, and those that study for understanding therein, do it rather for worldly ends, or that they may defend it, than…to examine whether it be true with a resolution to choose and profess that religion which in their judgment appears the truest. And as is their faith so is their practice…
And when you are convinced, be not ashamed to profess the truth. For otherwise you may become a stumbling block to others, and inherit the lot of those Rulers of the Jews who believed in the Messiah but yet were afraid to confess Him lest they should be put out of the Synagogue. Therefore when you are convinced, be not ashamed of the truth but profess it openly and endeavor to convince your brother also, that you may inherit at the resurrection the promise made in Daniel 12:3, that they who turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars for ever and ever. And rejoice if you are counted worthy to suffer in your reputation or in any other way for the sake of the Gospel, for then great is your reward”.

The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. Revelation 3:5.

Let us move on and help others to understand yet again another wonderful misunderstood scripture and the meaning of this simple prophecy in Isaiah 9:6.

I told you about the Trinitarians who use this Isaiah 9:6 to prove the Trinity.
Well, there is another denomination that uses this scripture to prove their faith that are: Oneness Pentecostalism.
And Isaiah 9:6, is more in support of the: Oneness doctrine of God.
Wikipedia, states:
Advocating a non-traditional view of God, Oneness Pentecostals find in modalistic monarchianism of the fourth century a historical predecessor that affirmed the two central aspects of their own convictions:
there is one indivisible God with no distinction of persons in God’s eternal essence, and
Jesus Christ is the manifestation, human personification, or incarnation of the one God.
 Wolfgang Vondey, Pentecostalism, A Guide for the Perplexed (London; New Delhi; New York; Sydney: Bloomsbury, 2013), p.77..
That Jesus Christ did not "obtain" his status, but rather that he is the one, eternal God himself manifested in the flesh according to the Oneness Pentecostal interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:16, as is rendered in the King James Version.

The problem with Oneness Pentecostalism.
These lovely people seem to ignore what 1 Timothy 3:16, says in the better translations, saying (HE) meaning Jesus was manifested in the flesh. But instead believe what is said in the King James Version, who has replaced the (HE) meaning Jesus with the word (God).

1 Timothy 3:16, says in the better translations, saying (HE) meaning Jesus was manifested in the flesh. But instead believe what is said in the King James Version, who has replaced the (HE) meaning Jesus with the word (God).

Click on image to enlarge.

Lets be sure about this by LOOKING in better translations and yet again understand another deception and see how the word (HE), meaning Jesus has been changed with the word (God) in the King James Version to make people believe Jesus is THE GOD.
Lets be sure about this by LOOKING in better translations and yet again understand another deception and see how the word (HE), meaning Jesus has been changed with the word (God) in the King James Version to make people believe Jesus is THE GOD.

Click on image to enlarge.

1 Timothy 3:16,

I wonder if these lovely Oneness people know about the forgeries and other countless wrong translations in the KING JAMES BIBLE, and the fact it was edited by a Catholic priests, Erasmus , who apparently wrote of Mary as “my salvation” and “my refuge.” Furthermore, he wished for “salvation through Jesus, but not without his Mother.” Reference: Thirteen Facts About KJVOnlyism.

Trinitarians, Oneness faith also ignore what Jesus taught in John 17:3, when He said His Father GOD was the ONLY ONE WHO IS THE TRUE GOD, excluding Himself from being the same GOD, which means they are also contradicting the word of GOD.
See link below for more: Oneness Pentecostalism.

First lets look and be sure with what the Trinity faith means, which developed from the First Council of Nicaea.

What is the doctrine of the Trinity?
Trinity web site here

What does it say?

What does it Mean That God is a Trinity?
The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons - the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) EACH PERSON IS FULLY GOD, (3) there is only one God.

Now lets have a look at the “Shield of the Trinity” or Scutum Fidei diagram?

Shield of the Trinity.

By User:AnonMoos (earlier version of SVG file Sumudu Fernando) [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons
The "Shield of the Trinity" or Scutum Fidei diagram of traditional medieval Western Christian symbolism, since 12th-century CE.

Click here or on image below to watch this video on you tube

Please join me in this quiz and SEE how many contradictions we can find in the Trinity declaration, in hope we can help them SEE the truth, by making them aware of their countless contradictions.

Notice the Trinity doctrine diagram shows: the Father is NOT the SON.
So far so good, which is a correct teaching.

First contradiction.
And yet Trinitarians still mange to contradict themselves by using Isaiah 9:6, to prove the Trinity, because they believe Everlasting Father, means Jesus is the same person as GOD the Father, when their faith teach the Father and the SON are distinct Persons.

Trinity doctrine teach:
The Father, Son, is distinct Persons.
So far so good, which is a correct teaching.

Second contradiction.
Trinity doctrine teach:

And yet there is only one God, which Trinitarians confess EACH PERSON, are distinct Persons, meaning SEPARATE PERSONS, which is an undeniable contradiction making THREE PERSONS, clearly = 3 Gods, all SIDE BY SIDE and NOT One GOD who GOD clearly told us Himself, He is THE only TRUE GOD on His own, just as the countless scriptures teach GOD IS GOD ALONE.
 “See now that I myself am he! THERE IS NO GOD BESIDES ME.
Deuteronomy 32:39.

Trinity doctrine teach:
The Holy Spirit is a distinct separate person, who is the third person of the Godhead.

Third contradiction.
And yet St John taught in John 1:1, there are NOT THREE, persons, but  ONE PERSON, when He said: in the beginning was the word and the word was with THE GOD and the word was GOD.
Notice how John tells us the word is GOD, meaning GOD The Father’s expressed voice alone.
John is telling us the word is GODS spoken word and plan. 
Definition: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech Usage: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.

Jesus Himself also taught there are only TWO DISTINCT PERSONS, when He said: I and the Father are ONE.

Are we to believe both, St John and Jesus made a mistake and forgot to say anything about such an important person of the Holy Spirit, if He is a separate person of the third Godhead?
It is also worth noting:
In Nicaea, questions regarding the Holy Spirit were left largely unaddressed until after the relationship between the Father and the Son was settled around the year 362.[77] So the doctrine in a more full-fledged form was not formulated until the Council of Constantinople in 360 AD,[78] and a final form formulated in 381 AD, primarily crafted by Gregory of Nyssa.[79]
77. Fairbairn 2009, pp. 46–47
78. Socrates, Book 2, Chapter 41
79. Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism ch. 3 in Schaff, Ante-Nicene, supra, 477

As we have read above. There was no doctrine about the Holy Spirit being a third distinct separate person until over 300 years after Christ in 360 AD.
And there is clearly nothing said or taught by St John and Jesus about the Holy Spirit being a third distinct separate person, except only TWO persons are CLEARLY taught in the two most famous teachings in the Gospels.

It is also well worth noting, one of history’s greatest scientists and Greek, Hebrew Bible scholar, Sir Isaac Newton said:
The word God is nowhere in the scriptures used to signify more than one of the three persons at once.

How many contradictions do we SEE?
The Trinity faith teaches there is ONE GOD as THREE persons in the Godhead.
And we also clearly SEE there are THREE contradictions in each declaration of the Trinity.

But hold on, it gets worse, because Jesus told a scribe the most important commandment was to believe:  The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE.
Mark 12:28 - 29.

And yet Trinitarians make another direct contraction by believing and teaching: The Lord our God, is NOT ONE, but is THREE.

Do we need to be a Bible scholar to understand ONE MEANS ONE AND NOT THREE?

Was I ever joking when I said the Trinity faith was full of contradictions?

Is there anything wrong with Isaiah 9:6?
Isaiah 9:6, says the (child is born) who we know is Jesus, and then goes on to say the same person of Jesus is the:
(Mighty God, Everlasting Father).

If we believe Jesus is the Father GOD, because Isaiah 9:6, says (Mighty God, Everlasting Father), then we become like the Trinitarians and contradict the word of GOD.

If we believe what the whole Bible teaches, that the Father conceived a SON and sent His own SON, and raised His SON from death, then there are no contradictions.

Lets have a look at what Peter said to Jesus
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ.
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.  Matthew 13 - 17.

What an amazing statement by Jesus, when He was so pleased to hear St Peter say, Jesus is the Christ, the SON of GOD.

What did Jesus have to say about who He was?

Seek and you will find said Jesus.

Well, yes, Jesus very kindly told us exactly who He was, when He said He was (YESHUA), JESUS THE CHRIST, Acts 9:5. He said he was the gate, John 10:9. The door, John 10:9.
The bread of life, John 6:35. The good shepherd, John 10:11. The true vine, John 15:1. The light of the world, John 8:12. The streams of living water, John 7:38. The resurrection and the life, John 11:25. The way and the truth and the life, John 14:6. 

And in John 8:58 we have Jesus confirming that He was the chosen begotten one, before anyone ever existed, Jesus was in GODS mind, thoughts, and plan, first and most important person to come as a MAN, to save and rule, as the Prince of Peace, and the Lamb of GOD for His GOD,  which is why: Jesus said to the Jews: Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Now, I don’t know about you, I only believe what Jesus and His prophets and disciples taught.
In fact, we are in trouble if we do not believe what Jesus taught as He said in John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. John 6:47.

But I cannot see anywhere, where Jesus Himself or His prophets or His disciples taught, or said Jesus was the Father GOD, or taught the Trinity, or we must believe in the Trinity or believe Jesus is God, to be saved.

Trinitarians often send me scriptures showing Jesus is God, believing theses scriptures prove Jesus is THE GOD.
Here’s an example below.
John 1:18.
This translation of John 1:18 could possibly be saying God and not Son and could be correct, as it also DISPROVES Jesus is THE GOD, because St John is confirming Jesus is a BEGOTTEN God, that is BORN/BEGOTTEN from His father, and as He was BORN/BEGOTTEN from His GOD, He was BORN with GODS whole NATURE, which makes sense to why John MAY have said: (The only BEGOTTEN God), Literally Jesus is the only kind who is truly UNIQUE.

Sadly Trinitarians get confused because Jesus is certainly referred to as God or a God, and they forget others are called God or gods, including, Moses was made a God by the ONE TRUE GOD, and angels, and even glorified members of the Church, and even Satan is called the God of this world.

In fact the: The Jews answered him, (Jesus) “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

We would all do well to note, whatever the Jews accused Jesus of being, GOD, or a god, when: Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came and Scripture cannot be broken do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? JOHN 34 -36.

Lets look at the meaning of the word (sanctified).
Lets look at the meaning of the word (sanctified).John 1:18.

Now we clearly read above, if Jesus was claiming to be THE GOD, he would have told them, there and then, but He INSTEAD referred to (Psalm 82:6) which says -
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Jesus was referring to (Gods) as in the sense of Magistrates and Prophets and judges, appointed by the word of GOD.
Jesus was saying He was also (sanctified) SET APART and appointed by THE GOD.
Jesus then corrected all the misunderstanding of the Jews by not saying He was GOD, but by referring to (HIS DEITY) when He said: do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Certain Trinitarians also do not understand the Bible was written in capitals, and there was no way of knowing the difference between God or THE GOD.
And if Trinitarians would only believe what Jesus taught in John 17:3, that His Father was the ONLY ONE WHO IS TRUE GOD, then they would not keep contradicting themselves, and Jesus teachings.

Let us delve deeper, and see what we discover.

If Jesus was the Father, then He was not telling us the truth, because He always said He was sent by the Father, and never ever said He sent Himself, which would be the case, if Jesus was the Father and the same person as the Father.

If Jesus was sent by the father, how can he be the father, when GOD His father said He sent His SON the Christ, which would also mean GOD the Father was not telling us the truth, when the Father said He sent His SON, and His Son said His Father sent Him.

For nothing will be impossible with God.”  Luke 1:37. 

Now let us examine more facts.

Did Jesus ever say we must believe He is the Father? NO.
Did Jesus ever say we must believe in the Trinity doctrine? NO.
Did Jesus ever say we must believe He is GOD? NO.
Did Jesus say we must believe He is the SON of His ONE TRUE GOD? YES.

Than, if we believe Isaiah 9:6 means Jesus is the Father GOD, we are not believing what Jesus always taught, that He is the SON, who never taught he was the father.

And if we do not believe Jesus is the SON, but believe Isaiah 9:6, means Jesus is the Father GOD, then how will we be saved, because Jesus taught we must believe He was SENT by the Father GOD, and Jesus taught, we must believe He is the SON of THE GOD, TO BE SAVED.

If Isaiah 9:6, does prove Jesus is the FATHER GOD, then the Trinity faith have again another contradiction to add to their many other contractions.

If Isaiah 9:6, does prove Jesus is the FATHER GOD, then ALL who believe in the Bible also have a problem, because the requirement for salvation is to believe Jesus is the SON of THE ALMIGHTY FATHER GOD and not to believe Jesus is the FATHER GOD Himself.

Lets be sure and have a look with what we are to believe by opening our Bibles to  John 20:31.
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Now we understand WHO Jesus claimed to be, and what we must believe that Jesus is not the father, and Jesus is not the GOD, but instead Jesus is the SON of the GOD.

What does Isaiah 9:6, then mean?

There are many different views, by many different faiths, teaching what Isaiah 9:6, means. Some believe it is another badly translated scripture.

Notice how different the translation of  ISAIAH 9:6, is in the Codex Sinaiticus.

6. because a child was born for us, a son also given to us, whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder, and he is named Messenger of Great Counsel, for I will bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health to him.

7 His sovereignty is great, and his peace has no boundary  upon the throne of Dauid and his kingdom, to make it prosper and to uphold it with righteousness and with judgment  from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord Sabaoth will do these  things. Codex

Also notice in the Hebrew text, the word (Father) is MISSING:

 Why do Trinitarians use ISAIAH 9:6, to PROVE the Trinity, when ISAIAH 9:6, DISPROVES the Trinity?

The different translations proves there is something fishy going on.

And I favour the Codex Sinaiticus.

I will add other peoples views at the end of my views.

My own conclusion on Isaiah 9:6.

I believe Isaiah 9:6, is a prophecy partly fulfilled when the Child became the Christ, and will be fully fulfilled and completed at Christ’s second coming, when Jesus will certainly be on the throne of David, and the government will be upon Jesus shoulders.

Jesus will be ruling as (A) Mighty God.

So Isaiah 9:6, could very well be correctly translated as (A) Mighty God.
This one single letter clears up this massive confusion and should help people to understand Isaiah 9:6, is not saying Jesus is THE SUPREME ONE TRUE GOD, but that Jesus is (A) Mighty God. And that’s different from THE ALMIGHTY GOD.

As we already know Jesus is the second greatest in the universe, who is: The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and the HIGHEST of all Gods, chosen and appointed by THE ONE TRUE FATHER GOD, which makes Him (A) Mighty God.

Jesus always will be and already is our Wonderful Counsellor, who is presently at His Fathers side, proving He can’t be His Father, if they are side by side, but is with His Father, acting as a Father and as our mediator between God and men, as our Prince of Peace.

English Standard Version
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

And finally GOD ALMIGHTY the one true GOD and Father, will rule THROUGH His begotten SON the Christ as Father to complete and accomplish His new Kingdom to come forever.

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Revelation 1:17 -18.

What more do we need to know? Just one more thing though, that we know, THE ONE TRUE GOD, and his ONE TRUE SON, so we know, we will be with our ALMIGHTY GOD THE Father and Wonderful Counsellor and Prince of Peace for evermore. Amen.



We have MORE FISHY business going on in the TRINITARIAN Translations of ISAIAH 9:6-

Is Jesus “the Mighty God”? A closer look at el gibbor in Isaiah 9.6

Oneness Pentecostalism.

1.     Trinitarians should admit that this verse is translated improperly just from the fact that Jesus is never called the “Everlasting Father” anywhere else in Scripture. Indeed, Trinitarians correctly deny that Jesus is the “Everlasting Father.” It is a basic tenet of Trinitarian doctrine that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” (Athanasian Creed). Thus, if this verse is translated properly, then Trinitarian Christians have a real problem. However, the phrase is mistranslated. The word translated “everlasting” is actually “age,” and the correct translation is that Jesus will be called “father of the [coming] age.”

ISAIAH 9:6 What does Everlasting FATHER Mean?

1 comment:

  1. Geoffrey David.22 May 2020 at 12:49

    By Geoffrey David.

    Does Isaiah 9:6 Say Jesus is mighty God?

    When it comes to Isaiah 9:6, the Greek Septuagint that JESUS and the APOSTLES quoted from does NOT contain the phrase everlasting father or mighty god.


    “For a Child is born to us, and a Son is given to us, whose government is upon His shoulder; and His name is called the Messenger of great counsel; for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to Him.” Isaiah 9:6 SEPTUAGINT

    The Greek Old Testament the Septuagint that Christ quoted from reveals what Isaiah 9:6 most likely originally said.

    It was translated by 70-72 Jewish scholars around 300-200 BC and hence came from the most ancient and reliable manuscripts available.

    The Hebrew Old Testament however was established by the Massoretes in the 6th century AD. It is known that many textual corruptions and additions crept into the Hebrew text between the 6th and 7th centuries.

    So where did this additional text in Isaiah 9:6 come from that was not even translated correctly by most modern translators?

    The one thing that no one can deny is that only one of these translations can be correct.

    So which one?

    The Septuagint that came from the oldest manuscripts. Or the later that has known corruptions that crept in between the 6th and 7th centuries.