John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not that I should do My will, but the will of the One having sent Me.
Quick Facts:
Dear friends, firstly, may I please explain some of many and main reasons why I believe Jesus did not pre-exist His flesh.
Jesus holds the unique titles as the New Adam, the Second Adam, the Last Adam, the Final Adam or the Ultimate Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49,Romans 5:12-19.
As we know Adam was a MAN, who did not pre-exist His flesh, who was a perfect MAN, made in the image of GOD, but fell.
And so came the Second Adam Jesus, for-filling all prophecies, who was the Image and the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, and was no ordinary MAN, because He was also the Lamb, and the living, walking physical Word of GOD, making Him the Only Begotten of GOD, who is the Living BREAD that last's for ever when we eat this LIFE giving BREAD that came DOWN from Heaven.
He is the Last Adam, the Final Adam or the Ultimate Adam, who did not fall, but did the whole will of GOD, and overcame all temptations, making Jesus the perfect Adam, so that He could be the Only and perfect Mediator between GOD and MAN, as Jesus was the Only perfect SON of MAN Begotten of GOD.
In order to be the Last and perfect Adam, He had to be a MAN like the first Adam, who did not pre exist his flesh like the first Adam.
If Jesus were GOD or Michael The Archangel, or some kind of pre-existing Spirit, He would not be a true MAN, or the Second Adam, or the Christ, or the Messiah, or the Only Begotten SON of GOD.
Christ never did mean, I AM GOD, or an Angel who was reincarnated, but instead is the Anointed One, the Messiah of GOD, who is sitting down at the right hand of the Majesty, One True Almighty GOD in heaven.
If Jesus were GOD, how then would Jesus sit down next to GOD?
If Jesus were GOD, who we know is the Anointed One of GOD, then He would be the Anointed One of Himself.
If Jesus were GOD, then He would be the Son of Himself.
As Jesus has a GOD then how is Jesus that same GOD?
The One True GOD, does not have a One True GOD, so how is Jesus the One True GOD, when He said our GOD was His GOD?
This is why The One True GOD is called The One True GOD, because to be The One True GOD means what is says, and means to be ONE PERSON who is GOD alone, on his own, with no other GOD next to Him.
Isaiah 45:5
I am Yahweh, and there is no one else. Besides me, there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known me,
Now, when did GOD, ever say to Himself, or the Angels, “Sit at My right hand, until I may place Your enemies as a footstool for Your feet”?
This MAN the christ Jesus was the WORD ''OF'' πGOD.πJohn 1:14.
Where as GOD is πThe WORD.π John 1:1.
GOD did NOT become flesh.
GOD cannot die, Jesus died.
The Word of GOD became flesh John 1:14.
GOD GAVE His SON John 3:16.
GOD did not give Himself which is a false Gospel denying the Father and the SON.
On top of that, if Jesus were GOD, or Michael The Archangel, or some kind of pre-existing Spirit, how could He Sympathise with our weaknesses?
And this is why Jesus could not be anything else except 100% HUMAN, as we are told in Hebrews 4:15 Berean Literal Bible
For we do not have a high priest not being able to sympathise with our weaknesses, but one having been tempted in all things by the same way, without sin.
Hebrews 2:17
Therefore it behooved Him to be made like the brothers in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, in order to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Therefore, since the children have partaken of blood and of flesh, He also likewise took part in the same things, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death, that is, the devil. Hebrews 2:14
With all that in mind, I believe, what most do not believe, that these very important facts out of many, prove Jesus could not have pre-existed His flesh.
These two very important facts out of many, would then mean the enemy has deceived most of Christianity into believing in another false Christ, as with a pre-existing Christ, who is not a true HUMAN and the True Christ Jesus.
We MUST overcome, by doing our home work, and studying, so that we will believe in the true HUMAN Christ Jesus, because as we read: the devil and Satan, deceiving the whole inhabited world. Revelation 12:9.
Note what 1 John 5:5 tells us: Now who is the one overcoming the world, except πthe one believing πthat Jesus is the Son of God?
Did you see that, as we do NOT read what most say and believe that we MUST believe Jesus is GOD, but that: the one πovercomingπ the world, except the one believing that πJesus is the Son of God?π
Revelation 2:26
πAnd the one overcomingπ and keeping My works until the end, I will give to him authority over the nations.
Revelation 3:21
πThe one overcoming,π I will give to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
As we read, how we MUST πovercomeπ the enemy, by believing in the true HUMAN and Christ Jesus.
And this is why I believe this is essential to know the true SON of MAN and Christ, as Jesus tells us in John 17:3, this is eternal life!
But HOW then did Jesus COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, IF HE WAS NOT IN HEAVEN, in the first place?
Well may I tell you what I believe?
Jesus spoke in Parables and in a figure of speech, as He told us in Matthew 13:34-35, and John 16:25.
Please see my FULL article below!
And if we examine what Jesus said and taught, I believe we discover Jesus was speaking BOTH, literally and Figuratively.
Lets have a quick LOOK!
Jesus said in John 8:42, John 7:28 ,John 13:3, John 16:27, John 16:28, John 16:30, how He CAME from GOD His Father.
Please see the full Scriptures in the FULL article below!
And as we know Jesus also taught us how His Father GOD is in the HEAVENS, and we know the HEAVENS are not in the earth but above the earth, Matthew 6:9: Therefore pray you like this: 'Our Father πin the heavens,π
Therefore, if we put the "two together" that Jesus is from GOD, and GOD is in the HEAVENS, what do we come up with?
Well, as Jesus is from GOD, and GOD is in the HEAVENS, and Jesus is FROM GOD who is IN the HEAVENS, that must conclude Jesus CAME DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF THE HEAVENS.
And so this is LITERAL.
But on the other hand, as Jesus did not pre-exist His flesh, and was not literally ALIVE in HEAVEN WITH GOD, that would conclude Jesus was also talking FIGURATIVELY, when He said:
For I have come down from heaven, not that I should do My will, but the will of the One having sent Me. John 6:38
So I believe Jesus was talking BOTH, LITERALLY and FIGURATIVELY, because Jesus DID come DOWN from GOD who is in the heavens, but Jesus was NOT ALIVE with GOD in the HEAVENS.
And as Jesus said in John 8:23 "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
I believe this is again BOTH LITERAL and a FIGURE of speech.
Because, Jesus was NOT made from the DUST of the earth as Adam was, but was Begotten by the power and Spirit of GOD that came DOWN out of HEAVEN, and so He is NOT from this earthly world, making this LITERAL.
But again as Jesus was NOT ALIVE in the HEAVENS WITH GOD, Before He was BORN, but was Begotten in the woman's womb, then this is also a FIGURE of speech.
As Bible Scholar Sir Anthony Buzzard said: how all good things come from GOD above, as we read in James 1:17,
Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of shifting.
Note, every perfect gift is from πabove, coming down from the Father of lights,π just as GOD gave us His SON that CAME DOWN from GOD ABOVE: For God so loved the world that πHe GAVEπ the only begotten Son, (GOD DID NOT GIVE HIMSELF, but HIS Son) so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.
Well that's what I believe, but what do you believe?
FULL ARTICLE:
Most of Christianity are very confused and deceived into believing in a PRE-EXISTING Christ, who they say was WITH GOD before He was Begotten and BORN in the woman's womb, all because of what Jesus said by saying: HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, as we read in scriptures like John 16:25, John 8:23, John 3:13, John 3:31, John 6:38, John 8:23.
So in this short article, if you don't mind, can I, little old me, an ordinary man off the street, help out by sharing with you what I now know Jesus meant when He said in verses like John 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
The question is, did Jesus mean He was ALIVE in Heaven with GOD, before He CAME DOWN from GOD who is in Heaven?
Was Jesus talking literally?
Well, the simple answer is found in Matthew 13:34-35.
34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables, and He was not speaking to them without a parable, 35 so that it might be fulfilled that having been spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.”
When Jesus also said: DRINK my BLOOD and EAT my FLESH, was He talking literally?
◄ John 6 ►
Berean Literal Bible
52 Therefore the Jews were arguing with one another, saying, “How is this man able to give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Therefore Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and shall have drunk His blood, you do not have life in yourselves. 54 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one feeding on Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread having come down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. The one eating this bread will live to the age.”
Was Jesus teaching cannibalism? Well, of course not.
Jesus always spoke in parables and in a figure of speech, metaphor's, idioms, as He said in John 16:25 until the end of his ministry Berean Literal Bible
I have spoken these things to youπ in allegories; πan hour is coming when I will speak to you πno more in allegories, πbut I will report to you plainly concerning the Father.
Now, the BREAD of GOD, is the WORD of GOD, that comes DOWN from GOD who is in HEAVENS Matthew 6:9.
And as Jesus is the WORD of GOD, and the WORD of GOD is the BREAD of GOD that gives life, which is the food that last's for ever, and the Spirit of GOD came DOWN from GOD out of Heaven and Jesus came from the Spirit of GOD that came down from GOD, then Jesus came DOWN from GOD out of Heaven. Luke 1:35. Matthew 3:17
So it's both a figure of speech and literal.
John 8:42
Berean Literal Bible
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for not even have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 7:28
Therefore Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, "You know Me and you know where I am from. And I have not come of Myself, but the One having sent Me is true, whom you do not know.
John 13:3
knowing that the Father has given Him all things into the hands, and that He came forth from God and He is going to God,
John 16:27
For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from God.
John 16:28
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; again I leave the world and go to the Father."
John 16:30
Now we know that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should ask You. In this we believe that You came forth from God."
As we read, Jesus is from GOD.
Jesus simply meant as He came from GOD, and not from the DUST as Adam did, and so He is NOT from this world, but is literally from GOD as He always taught, and as GOD is in heaven, then (figuratively) Jesus is from HEAVEN, which is why Jesus said He CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN.
Notice what Jesus said, and WHERE our Father is in Matthew 6:9:
Therefore pray you like this: 'Our Father πin the heavens,π hallowed be Your name! Matthew 6:9
As we know Jesus is from GOD, and GOD is πin the heavensπ and so therefore this is why Jesus CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, which is also a figure of speech as He said in John 16:25.
We should all know how the Bible very often talks FIGURATIVELY, in SYMBOLIC meanings, parables and in a figure of speech, metaphor's and idioms, and also has literal meanings as Jesus is (The Son Of GOD) John 10:36.
Example:
Jesus said in Matthew 17:20 Berean Literal Bible
And He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly I say to you, if you have faith as of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. And nothing will be impossible for you."
As we know, we humans CANNOT move mountains, and so this is simply a phrase, an expression, “to move mountains” as a metaphor!
But also knowing nothing is impossible with GOD, in that if we are truly in Him the ONE TRUE GOD, and in His One True Christ, they are in and with us, as GOD was with Moses, and in Jesus.
So, all though it is literal that Jesus came from GOD, and as GOD is in the heavens, and so Jesus came down from GOD who is in the heavens, this is also a figure of speech.
Notice in Luke 1:35 how "The Holy Spirit came DOWN FROM GOD out of heaven upon Mary, which is the power of the Most High GOD:
And the angel answering, said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore also the Holy One being born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35. Matthew 3:17.
With all that in mind, I would now like to reveal what Jesus did NOT say about being in HEAVEN, and Going BACK to Heaven, or RETURNING to Heaven, as we would expect Jesus to say if it were true, that is, if Jesus was already in Heaven, before He was Born on the earth.
We read in John 13:3, English Standard Version
Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going π(back) πto God,
And we also read in John 16:28 New Living Translation
Yes, I came from the Father into the world, and now I will leave the world and π(return)π to the Father.”
However, did you know, the words saying: (return or going back) are FALSE, as they are NOT in the oldest Greek Bibles, and are DECEIVING MOST into believing Jesus was alive WITH GOD before He was BORN as a MAN in the womb of Mary.
Please see my article below: John 13:3, and John 16:28 FALSE TRINITARIAN TRANSLATIONS.
In John 17:5 we read Jesus saying: And now glorify Me, You Father, with Yourself, with the glory that I had with You before the world existed. BLB.
John 17:5 is also misunderstood by most of Christianity who believe Jesus was saying He existed with GOD before the world existed.
But the truth is Jesus is not talking about being ALIVE WITH GOD before the world existed.
Jesus is instead referring to GLORY, before the world existed.
NOT existing with GOD before the world existed.
BLB
And what is that GLORY before the world existed?
I would like to close this article by finishing with: The Trinity Delusion, as I could not explain John 17:5 any better myself.
Bare in mind, the The Trinity Delusion, website is exposing the TRINITY, and so therefore is aimed at Trinitarian false teachings.
The Immediate Context
The Trinitarian interpretation of John 17:4 ignores the immediately preceding context. Carefully regard what Jesus is talking about in the preceding verses:
Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You.... I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. Now, Father, glorify me together alongside Yourself, to that the glory I had...
Jesus tells us that he had glorified the Father on earth. How did he do this? The Gospel of John makes it quite clear to us. The Father abiding in Jesus did the works (14:10). Jesus glorified the Father in terms of the works he did in the name of the Father (5:43). Having glorified the Father (17:4), he then asks the Father to glorify him (17:5). The works Jesus did manifested his glory (2:11). Jesus said he did not glorify himself in terms of who he was but it was his Father who glorified him (8:54). This is because the Father abiding in him did the works (14:10) and in this way "the glory that comes from the only God" are those works Jesus was saying and going (5:43-44). In this way, the Father was glorified in him (12:28; 17:4), glorified in terms of the works Jesus did since he came in his Father's name to do the Father's works (10:32) and the Father abiding in him did those works.
Note also how Jesus is asking to be glorified so that he will glorify the Father in that glorification. Additionally, notice how Jesus said that he glorified the Father on the earth in verse 17:4. Now compare this fact with the following:
"to that glory I had before the world."
The glory which Jesus had alongside (para) the Father before the world isn't referring to a glory which Jesus had before the creation of the heavens and the earth. He is referring to the glory he had alongside (para) the Father in terms of the works he was doing before the people of the world (17:4), those who hated Jesus and the disciples who are not of the world.
I speak the things which I have seen para my Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard para your father. 8:38
How can you believe, when you receive glory para one another and you do not seek the glory that is para the one and only God? 5:44
Now they have come to know that everything You have given me is para You. 17:7.
7. Summary: Translation
The facts show us that John's words are being entirely misconstrued by Trinitarian interpreters. Jesus' words, (lit.) "and now glorify me You Father alongside you to that glory I had before the the world to be alongside you" mean that Jesus is asking to be glorified to that glory he had alongside the Father in terms of the works he did before the world who hates Jesus and his disciples. These works manifested his glory and glorified the Father who was abiding in him doing the works and who glorified Jesus in this manner concerning these works. At John 17:5, Jesus wants to be glorified to that glory which he had alongside Father before the world who hated him when he did those works and which glory is "to be (einai) alongside You"
Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son likewise does. 5:19.
Conclusion
Jesus was the Lamb who had been slain from the foundation of the world. Trinitarians and everyone else knows this does not mean a crucifixion event pre-existed. It is referring to God's predestination and His predestined things are realities from the foundation of the world since He has been finished all His works from the foundation of the world. And He also set the times and seasons these realities will be manifested in our time and space of creation.
If we accept a typical Trinitarian translation of this verse, the Scriptural facts show us that the Trinitarian claim here is unwarranted. The Scripture speaks of Christians who were chosen before the foundation of the world and who had grace given to them before the times of the ages. This language does not mean the self consciously pre-existed yet at John 17:5 this is what Trinitarians are claiming such language necessarily means when the Scriptures show us plainly that this is incorrect.
But the Trinitarian claim has even more problems. A simple review of the context, and the word "world" in this context, shows that Trinitarians are entirely off base. At John 17:4, Jesus is referring to how he glorified the Father in terms of the works he was doing. And since the Father abiding in Jesus did the works (14:10), the Father glorified Jesus in terms of the works he was doing (5:44; 8:54). The facts force us to interpret the Greek text of John 17:5 to mean that Jesus is asking to be glorified to that glory, that is, the glory he had with the Father in terms of the works the Father did through him.
The Lamb who had been slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8.
Full article by The Trinity Delusion HERE: https://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/TTD/verses/john17_5.html
Please see my related articles below:
John 6:38. How Did Jesus COME DOWN From Heaven If He Did NOT PRE-EXIST His flesh?
