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John 17:5 — Did Jesus Exist with the Father Before the World Began?
A Biblical Examination of Jesus' Prayer About the Glory He Had with the Father Before the World Existed
By Simon Brown
Part 1 – Quick Facts
One of the most frequently quoted verses used to support the belief that Jesus consciously existed with the Father before His human birth is John 17:5.
Jesus prayed:
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed."
(John 17:5)
Many Christians read this verse and immediately conclude that Jesus was saying He personally lived beside the Father before the creation of the world.
But is that really what Jesus meant?
Or could He have been referring to something else?
Before reaching any conclusion, let us carefully examine the biblical evidence.
Quick Facts
Jesus does not say, "Glorify Me with the glory I had when I was already living beside You before the world existed."
Throughout the Bible, God speaks of people, events, and purposes long before they become reality because they already exist in His foreknowledge and eternal plan.
The Apostle Peter describes Jesus as being foreknown before the foundation of the world, yet made manifest only in these last times for our sake (1 Peter 1:20).
Peter also teaches that Jesus was delivered according to God's definite plan and foreknowledge (Acts 2:23), demonstrating that God's purposes existed before their fulfilment in history.
Later in the very same prayer, Jesus asks the Father to give His disciples the same glory that the Father had given Him (John 17:22). Yet no one suggests that the disciples personally existed before the creation of the world.
Jesus also says that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world (John 17:24), showing that God's love and purpose extend beyond human history.
Only two verses earlier, Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from His Father by praying:
"This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
(John 17:3)
Even after His resurrection, Jesus still calls the Father:
"My God and your God."
(John 20:17)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus is presented as the promised Messiah, foretold by the prophets, foreknown in God's eternal purpose, miraculously conceived by the Holy Spirit, and sent into the world by His Father.
The Question We Must Answer
When Jesus prayed,
"Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed,"
was He teaching that He consciously lived beside the Father before creation?
Or was He referring to the glory, honour, and purpose that God had prepared for His Messiah long before the world began?
In this study we will carefully examine:
the immediate context of John 17,
God's foreknowledge and eternal purpose,
the meaning of glory in Scripture,
the testimony of Peter and Paul,
and Jesus' own teaching concerning His Father,
allowing the whole Bible—not tradition—to explain one of the most discussed verses in John's Gospel.
Part 2 – Why John 17:5 Has Confused Millions
John 17:5 has become one of the most frequently quoted passages used to support the belief that Jesus consciously existed with the Father before the creation of the world.
Jesus prayed:
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed."
(John 17:5)
Many readers immediately conclude that Jesus was saying He literally lived beside the Father before the world was created.
For this reason, John 17:5 is often presented as one of the strongest proofs of Christ's personal pre-existence.
Many Bible commentaries also interpret the verse this way.
For example, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament states that Jesus was asking for the restoration of His "actual and conscious existence at the Father's side" before the incarnation.
This interpretation has influenced many Christians to believe that John 17:5 is describing a literal, personal existence with God before creation.
But should we simply accept this conclusion?
Or should we do what the Bereans did and carefully examine the Scriptures to see whether these things are so?
The important question is not:
"What do traditions or commentaries say?"
The important question is:
"What does the whole Bible say?"
Before building an entire doctrine upon one verse, we should ask several important questions.
Did Jesus actually say He consciously lived beside the Father before the world existed?
Or did He simply speak of the glory that He had with the Father before the world existed?
Is there a difference between God foreknowing and planning something before creation and someone consciously existing before creation?
Does the rest of Scripture help explain Jesus' words?
These questions are important because the Bible frequently speaks of God's plans, purposes, promises, and even His chosen people before they appear in history.
God declared through Isaiah:
"I am God, and there is no other... declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done."
(Isaiah 46:9–10)
This remarkable ability belongs to God alone.
He knows the future before it happens.
He declares His purposes long before they are fulfilled.
Therefore, before concluding that John 17:5 teaches Christ's conscious pre-existence, we must first examine how the Bible describes God's foreknowledge and eternal purpose.
Could Jesus have been referring to the glory that His Father had already prepared for Him in God's eternal plan?
Or was He speaking of a literal life with the Father before the creation of the world?
The Scriptures themselves will provide the answer.
In the next section, we will carefully examine the exact words Jesus prayed and discover something many readers overlook when reading John 17:5.
Part 3 – What Did Jesus Actually Say?
One of the most important principles of Bible study is to read Scripture carefully without adding words or ideas that are not actually there.
Let us therefore look again at Jesus' prayer.
Jesus said:
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed."
(John 17:5)
Notice carefully what Jesus did say.
He prayed for the Father to glorify Him with the glory that He had with the Father before the world existed.
Now notice what Jesus did not say.
He did not say:
"Father, restore Me to the life I lived with You before the world existed."
"Father, return Me to heaven where I consciously lived before creation."
"Father, give Me back the body I had before I came to earth."
"Father, restore My previous heavenly existence."
None of those statements appear in John 17:5.
Instead, Jesus speaks only about the glory He had with the Father before the world existed.
That distinction is extremely important.
The question therefore becomes:
What does Jesus mean by "the glory" that He had with the Father?
Does glory always refer to a conscious personal existence?
Or can glory exist in God's eternal purpose long before it is revealed in history?
The Bible repeatedly shows that God plans and prepares things long before they come to pass.
Peter writes concerning Jesus:
"He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in these last times for your sake."
(1 Peter 1:20)
Notice the remarkable wording.
Peter does not say that Jesus was manifest before the foundation of the world.
He says Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world.
There is a significant difference.
Something that is foreknown exists in God's perfect knowledge, purpose, and plan before it appears in history.
Peter uses exactly the same principle in Acts.
Speaking about Jesus' death, he writes:
"This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."
(Acts 2:23)
Again, Jesus' sacrifice was part of God's eternal purpose long before it actually happened.
God knew it.
God planned it.
God appointed it.
Only later was it fulfilled.
Could Jesus therefore be praying to receive the glory that had always been prepared for Him in the Father's eternal purpose?
This would perfectly agree with the way God speaks throughout Scripture.
God often speaks of future events as though they already exist because, in His perfect knowledge, they are absolutely certain.
As Isaiah records:
"I am God, and there is no other... declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done."
(Isaiah 46:9–10)
Only God can speak this way.
He knows the future perfectly.
He declares His purposes before they happen.
He prepares His salvation long before it is revealed.
This leads us to another remarkable observation.
Only a few verses later, Jesus prays that His disciples would receive the very glory that the Father had given Him.
Could this help explain what Jesus meant in John 17:5?
Let us examine the next verses carefully.
Part 4 – Jesus Gives the Same Glory to His Disciples
One of the most overlooked facts when studying John 17:5 is that only a few verses later, Jesus speaks again about glory.
This time, however, He is not speaking about Himself.
He is praying for His disciples.
Jesus says:
"The glory that You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one even as We are one."
(John 17:22)
Notice what Jesus says.
The Father gave glory to Jesus.
Jesus then gave that same glory to His disciples.
This immediately raises an important question.
Did the disciples exist with God before the foundation of the world?
The obvious answer is no.
The disciples were ordinary men, born on earth many centuries after the creation of the world.
Yet Jesus says He has given them the glory that the Father gave Him.
This demonstrates an important biblical principle.
Receiving glory does not require someone to have personally existed before creation.
Throughout the Scriptures, glory often refers to honour, authority, privilege, purpose, and the position God appoints for His servants.
Jesus prayed that His followers would share in His glory because they would share in His work, His mission, and ultimately His future inheritance.
Notice also what Jesus prayed only moments later:
"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, may be with Me where I am, to see My glory that You have given Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world."
(John 17:24)
Again, Jesus speaks of the Father's love before the foundation of the world.
Does this mean the disciples were also alive before the foundation of the world because they were included in God's plan?
Certainly not.
Instead, it reveals something wonderful about God's eternal purpose.
Long before the world was created, God had already purposed to send His Son into the world.
He had already planned salvation.
He had already determined that faithful believers would one day share in Christ's glory.
This is exactly what Paul teaches.
Writing to Timothy, he says:
"...according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."
(2 Timothy 1:9)
Notice Paul's words carefully.
God's grace was given to us before the ages began.
Does that mean Christians consciously existed before creation?
Of course not.
Paul is speaking about God's eternal purpose.
In the same way, Peter writes:
"He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world..."
(Ephesians 1:4)
Were believers personally alive before creation?
No.
God simply chose them beforehand in His perfect foreknowledge and eternal plan.
This is exactly how God works throughout Scripture.
He speaks of things that are certain in His purpose long before they are fulfilled in history.
Therefore, when Jesus prayed,
"Glorify Me with the glory that I had with You before the world existed,"
it is entirely consistent with the rest of Scripture to understand this as referring to the glory prepared for God's Messiah in His eternal purpose, rather than requiring a conscious personal existence beside the Father before creation.
This understanding also harmonises perfectly with Jesus' own words only two verses earlier:
"This is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
(John 17:3)
The Father remains the only true God.
Jesus remains the Christ whom the Father sent.
The next question is equally important.
What does the Bible teach about God's foreknowledge before the foundation of the world?
Because once we understand God's foreknowledge, John 17:5 becomes much easier to understand.
.Excellent. This next section is probably the foundation of the entire article. If readers understand how God's foreknowledge works throughout Scripture, then John 17:5 becomes much easier to understand. I have also linked it back to your recent articles.
Part 5 – God's Foreknowledge Before the Foundation of the World
One of the greatest mistakes people make when reading John 17:5 is failing to understand how God speaks about the future.
Throughout the Bible, God frequently speaks of people, events, promises, and purposes long before they actually happen.
Why?
Because God knows the end from the beginning.
He declares:
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done."
(Isaiah 46:9–10)
This is one of God's unique attributes.
Unlike mankind, God sees history before it unfolds.
Nothing surprises Him.
Nothing catches Him unaware.
Everything takes place according to His perfect knowledge and eternal purpose.
This principle is seen throughout the New Testament.
Peter writes concerning Jesus:
"He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in these last times for your sake."
(1 Peter 1:20)
Notice Peter's wording carefully.
He does not say Jesus was manifest before the foundation of the world.
Nor does he say Jesus was born, living, or walking beside the Father before creation.
Instead, Peter says Jesus was foreknown.
There is a profound difference.
To be foreknown means to be fully known beforehand within God's eternal purpose and plan.
Peter repeats this same truth in Acts.
Speaking of Jesus' death, he writes:
"This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."
(Acts 2:23)
Notice once again.
Jesus' death did not happen by accident.
It happened exactly according to God's predetermined purpose.
God knew it.
God planned it.
God foretold it through the prophets.
Only later was it fulfilled in history.
This is precisely how biblical prophecy works.
Centuries before Jesus was born, the prophets had already spoken about:
His birth.
His ministry.
His miracles.
His rejection.
His suffering.
His crucifixion.
His resurrection.
His kingdom.
Did Jesus therefore have to be consciously alive when Isaiah, Micah, David, and Zechariah wrote these prophecies?
Of course not.
The prophecies existed because they were part of God's eternal purpose.
Their fulfilment came later.
The same principle appears throughout Scripture.
Paul writes:
"...according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."
(2 Timothy 1:9)
Does this mean Christians consciously existed before creation?
Certainly not.
Paul is describing God's eternal purpose.
Likewise, he tells believers:
"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."
(Ephesians 1:4)
Again, believers were not personally alive before creation.
Yet God already knew them.
He had already purposed their salvation.
He had already prepared their inheritance.
The Bible repeatedly teaches this wonderful truth.
God's plans exist before their fulfilment.
God's promises exist before their fulfilment.
God's chosen Messiah was foreknown before His fulfilment.
Therefore, when Jesus prayed:
"Father, glorify Me with the glory that I had with You before the world existed."
(John 17:5)
It is entirely consistent with the rest of Scripture to understand Him as speaking of the glory that already existed within God's eternal purpose for His Messiah.
This understanding also harmonises beautifully with Jesus' own teaching.
Only two verses earlier He prayed:
"This is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
(John 17:3)
The Father is the only true God.
Jesus is the Christ whom the Father sent.
The same Jesus who was foreknown before the foundation of the world was later revealed at exactly the right time, just as Peter declares.
This leads us to another important question.
If Jesus was asking to receive the glory prepared for Him before the foundation of the world, when did He actually receive that glory?
The New Testament gives a remarkably clear answer.
Let us now examine what happened after Jesus' resurrection and ascension.
Part 6 – When Did Jesus Receive His Glory?
If Jesus was asking the Father to glorify Him, then we should ask another important question.
When did the Father answer that prayer?
The New Testament repeatedly tells us that Jesus received His glory after His death, resurrection, and ascension.
Peter writes:
"The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus."
(Acts 3:13)
Notice carefully.
Who glorified Jesus?
It was God.
Jesus did not glorify Himself.
His Father glorified Him.
This agrees perfectly with Jesus' prayer in John 17:5.
Again, Peter writes:
"...through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory..."
(1 Peter 1:21)
Notice once more.
God raised Jesus.
God gave Jesus glory.
The glory was something given to Jesus by His Father.
This agrees exactly with what Jesus prayed before His crucifixion.
Paul teaches the same truth.
Speaking of Jesus, he writes:
"Therefore God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name that is above every name."
(Philippians 2:9)
Notice Paul's words.
Therefore...
Because of Jesus' perfect obedience—even unto death—the Father highly exalted Him.
If Jesus already possessed absolute glory as Almighty God Himself, why would God need to exalt Him?
Why would God need to give Him a name above every name?
The obvious answer is that the Father rewarded His faithful Son.
This is exactly what Jesus prayed for in John 17:5.
The writer of Hebrews also confirms this.
He tells us:
"After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."
(Hebrews 1:3)
Again:
"For the joy that was set before Him endured the cross... and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
(Hebrews 12:2)
Notice the order.
Jesus first humbled Himself.
Jesus faithfully completed the work His Father had given Him.
Only then was He exalted.
Only then was He glorified.
Only then did He sit at the Father's right hand.
This is precisely what Jesus anticipated in John 17:5.
He knew His earthly work was almost complete.
He therefore prayed that His Father would now glorify Him with the glory prepared for Him from the very beginning of God's eternal purpose.
This understanding beautifully harmonises with everything we have already examined.
Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world.
God's purpose existed before creation.
The Messiah's glory was prepared beforehand.
Jesus faithfully completed His Father's will.
The Father then glorified His obedient Son.
There is no contradiction.
Instead, there is one consistent story running throughout the whole Bible.
God planned His Messiah before the foundation of the world.
God sent His Messiah at the appointed time.
God raised His Messiah from the dead.
God glorified His Messiah.
God exalted His Messiah above every name.
All glory ultimately belongs to the Father, who accomplished His eternal purpose through His beloved Son.
This also helps us understand why Jesus always gave the glory back to His Father.
Even after His resurrection, Jesus never claimed that He Himself was the only true God.
Instead, He continued to distinguish Himself from His Father by saying:
"I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God."
(John 20:17)
The Father remained His God.
The Son remained the Father's glorified Messiah.
The next question is perhaps the most important of all.
How does John 17:3 help us understand John 17:5?
Remarkably, the answer is found only two verses earlier, in the very same prayer.
Part 7 – John 17:3 Explains John 17:5
One of the greatest mistakes made when interpreting John 17:5 is reading it in isolation.
Instead of beginning at verse 5, we should begin where Jesus began.
Only two verses earlier, Jesus prayed:
"And this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
(John 17:3)
These words are among the clearest and most important statements Jesus ever made.
Notice how Jesus clearly distinguishes between two persons.
First:
"You, the only true God."
Jesus is speaking directly to His Father.
He identifies His Father as:
"the only true God."
Then Jesus immediately adds:
"and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
Notice the distinction.
The Father is identified as:
the only true God.
Jesus identifies Himself as:
Jesus Christ, the One whom the Father sent.
Jesus does not pray:
"That they know Us, the only true God."
Nor does He say:
"That they know Me as the only true God."
Instead, Jesus carefully distinguishes Himself from the only true God by identifying Himself as the Christ whom the Father sent.
This is the foundation of the entire prayer.
Now continue reading into verse 5.
Jesus says:
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed."
(John 17:5)
Notice what has happened.
The speaker has not changed.
The Father has not changed.
Jesus has not changed.
The One whom Jesus has just identified as the only true God is still the same Father to whom He is praying.
Therefore, whatever John 17:5 means, it cannot contradict what Jesus has just declared in John 17:3.
Scripture always agrees with itself.
Jesus cannot identify His Father as the only true God in verse 3 and then two verses later declare Himself to be that same only true God.
Instead, the two verses beautifully complement one another.
In verse 3:
The Father is:
the only true God.
Jesus is:
the Christ whom the Father sent.
In verse 5:
The Son prays to the only true God and asks His Father to glorify Him with the glory prepared for Him before the world existed.
The relationship remains exactly the same.
The Father is the Giver.
The Son is the Receiver.
The Father sends.
The Son is sent.
The Father glorifies.
The Son is glorified.
The Father commands.
The Son obeys.
This same pattern appears throughout John's Gospel.
Jesus repeatedly says:
"The Father is greater than I."
(John 14:28)
He also says:
"The Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing."
(John 5:19)
Again:
"I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me."
(John 8:28)
And once more:
"The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in Me does His works."
(John 14:10)
Every one of these passages points in the same direction.
Jesus continually gives all honour, authority, power, and glory back to His Father.
He never replaces the Father.
He never claims to be the only true God.
Instead, He continually glorifies the One whom He Himself calls:
"the only true God."
This is why John 17:3 must always be read before John 17:5.
When both verses are read together, the prayer becomes wonderfully clear.
Jesus, the promised Messiah and Son of God, is praying to His Father—the only true God—and asking to receive the glory that His Father had prepared for Him before the foundation of the world.
The next question naturally follows.
How did the early apostles understand these words after Jesus' resurrection?
Did Peter, Paul, and John begin teaching that Jesus was the only true God?
Or did they continue teaching exactly what Jesus Himself had prayed?
That is the final piece of the puzzle.
Part 8 – How Did the Apostles Understand Jesus' Prayer?
After Jesus returned to His Father, did the apostles begin teaching that Jesus was the only true God?
Or did they continue teaching exactly what Jesus Himself had prayed in John 17?
The answer is remarkably clear.
Throughout the New Testament, the apostles consistently distinguish between God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.
Consider Paul's words:
"Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
(1 Corinthians 8:6)
Notice how closely Paul's words resemble Jesus' own prayer.
Jesus said:
"You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
(John 17:3)
Paul writes:
"One God, the Father... and one Lord, Jesus Christ."
The same distinction remains.
The Father is identified as the one God.
Jesus is identified as the one Lord.
Paul never says:
"One God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Instead, he repeats the same truth Jesus taught.
Peter teaches exactly the same.
He begins his second letter by writing:
"May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord."
(2 Peter 1:2)
Again, notice the distinction.
There is God.
There is Jesus our Lord.
The two are closely united, yet clearly distinguished.
The Apostle John also ends his Gospel by reminding readers of the purpose for which he wrote.
Immediately after recording Jesus' prayer in John 17 and Thomas' words in John 20:28, John concludes:
"These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name."
(John 20:31)
Notice John's conclusion.
After everything he has recorded, he does not say:
"These things are written so that you may believe Jesus is Almighty God."
Instead, he writes:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God."
This is exactly what Jesus Himself taught throughout John's Gospel.
The apostles faithfully preserved the same message.
Even after Jesus had been raised from the dead and glorified by His Father, they continued to distinguish between:
God the Father, and
His Son, Jesus Christ.
This is also confirmed by the risen Jesus Himself.
After His resurrection He told Mary:
"I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God."
(John 20:17)
Notice how remarkable this statement is.
After His resurrection...
After His victory over death...
After He had received all authority...
Jesus still calls the Father:
"My God."
This agrees perfectly with John 17:3.
The Father remains the only true God.
Jesus remains the Father's beloved Son and glorified Messiah.
The testimony of the New Testament is therefore wonderfully consistent.
Jesus prays to the Father.
The apostles preach the Father.
The apostles preach Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God.
The Father glorifies the Son.
The Son glorifies the Father.
Every writer tells the same story.
Final Conclusion
When John 17:5 is read alongside the whole Bible, there is no need to force the verse to teach something Jesus never actually said.
Instead, the Scriptures reveal a beautiful and consistent picture.
God had already planned His Messiah before the foundation of the world.
God foreknew His Son.
God prepared glory for His Son.
At the appointed time, God brought His Son into the world through the miraculous conception of Mary.
Jesus faithfully completed the work His Father gave Him to do.
After His death and resurrection, the Father glorified and exalted His obedient Son, exactly as Jesus had prayed.
Throughout this entire prayer, Jesus never changes His relationship with His Father.
He continues to pray to the One whom He had already identified as:
"The only true God."
(John 17:3)
And He continues to identify Himself as:
"Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
The safest way to understand John 17:5 is therefore to read it in harmony with the whole testimony of Scripture.
When we do so, we discover that God's eternal foreknowledge, purpose, promises, and glory were established before the foundation of the world, and that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah through whom God has fulfilled His perfect plan of salvation.
As Paul reminds us:
"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:36)
May we all continue to follow the example of the Bereans:
"They received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." (Acts 17:11)
For the Scriptures—not human tradition—must always remain our final authority.
